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Talk:Terran Empire
I'm wondering about the 'other continuities' sectioning here and its appropriate use. "Dark Mirror" contradicts canon -- it depicts a mirror universe where the empire never fell and was in full force in 2367. This is certainly another continuity from what is accepted as canon and the primary version of licensed events. However, Marvel's one shot, "Shattered Universe", Shatner's "Mirror Trilogy" and DC Comics "Mirror Saga" all correspond with canon in every way, despite being contradictory to each other. Why are some accepted as "regular continuity" and others downgraded to "other"? Furthermore, Star Trek Online has no known contradictions i can see from a reader's viewpoint. There is no other source that presents an 'alternate' version of 25th century mirror continuity. STO's mirror milieu is entirely fitting with the mainstream/canon mirror continuity. -- Captain MKB 19:09, December 15, 2010 (UTC) Restoration The Empire was only restored in the ST:Online continuity, which is incompatible with the continuity established in recent Trek novels (one example would be the Borg, who still exist in ST:Online, but which were wiped out in the novels' Destiny trilogy). And it seems clear that these novels will not be restoring the Empire. So therefore, the restoration of the Empire is relegated to an alternate timeline, that of ST:Online. :I don't see how the "regular" universe's timeline will affectanything that happens in the mirror universe -- seems like things would evolve in the same direction in either case, since the mirror universe is not directly parallel to either version of the "regular" universes timeline. This is the basic flaw in these comments. Furthermore, the canon mirror universe directly contradicts several version of the novels' mirror universe, making it unclear whether or not there is even one mirror universe timeline. :Furthermore, your personal assumptions as to what the novelists will or will not do are not conclusive to choosing article material. Since the novels are currently in the early 2380s, making broad ranging assumptions about what they might intend to do in the 2400s is a patently incorrect way to make policy or article material on MB -- Captain MKB 20:31, February 12, 2011 (UTC) You obviously have not read any of the novels' depictions of the mirror universe. Have you never heard of Memory Omega? Emperor Spock planned the whole fall of the Terran Empire - so it could never rise again. There is absolutely nothing in any of the novels' MU stories which even HINTS at a restoration of the Empire. In any case, ST: Online is no more 'real' a depiction of Trek's future than that which exists in the novels, so by definition STO is no more official or authoritative than that. (The reason I brought up the Borg of the regular universe was to show merely that the novels' timeline is completely incompatible with that of STO. If they present different views of the normal universe, then their depictions of the MU can also be different. As I said, neither timeline is official, or canon, or whatever you prefer to call it (STO is not meant to be the official Trek canon - it's just a video game) Mr. Laser Beam 01:48, February 16, 2011 (UTC) ::Well, as the novelist currently writing the next Mirror Universe novel, RISE LIKE LIONS, I'll tell you both right now: in the TrekLit continuity, we are NOT bringing back the Terran Empire. However, you'll need to wait until December 2011 to see what happens next. But I can assure you that we are not paying any attention to the STO continuity and will be making many more divergences from it in the months and years to come. Do with that knowledge what you will. -- InfinityDog 01:54, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :::I think the discussion has expanded beyond its necessary scope here :::To boil it down, there is no "alternate" continuity unless there are two concurrent continuities that have some basic conflict. The STO milieu of the 2400s say the Terran Empire has risen again. There is no other continuity that takes places in the early 2400s. Therefore, there is no other continuity to conflict with that fact. -- Captain MKB 05:40, February 16, 2011 (UTC) But stuff takes place prior to 2400 has already contradicted the books, so that immediate shoots STO and anything that happens in it after the break into a seperate continuity. As long as it takes place after things have begun to change then it's a separate continuity whether the stuff in the other continuity has gone that far or not. I also think we should take into account that the person responsible for the current MU storyline in the novels has posted and said the Empire will not come back.JDB 17:19, February 16, 2011 (UTC) ::::Of course, you have Michael Martin's tie-in book to STO which indicates that STO is the continuation of the timeline from the pre-Destiny Star Trek novels and the post-Destiny novels represent the divergence. If STO is the "old" novelverse and the post-Destiny books represent a divergent novelverse then matters are not nearly that clear cut.--Leviathan99 (talk) 03:41, August 10, 2012 (UTC) Star Trek Online has already established itself as a separate continuity from the novels in its 'Path to 2409' articles and the events in game, so anything that happens in the game is in a different continuity from the events of the book. It doesn’t matter 'when' it happens the two different continuities aren’t going to share the same mirror universe. Other continuities of the mirror universe have their own separate sections at the bottom, why cant Star Trek Online? This will only confuse readers who will not be able to tell what is in which continuity. TarEldar 19:17, February 16, 2011 (UTC) :But there is only one 25th century mirror continuity. it's not alternate to anything. :I think that current edits reflect a basic confusion about that fact. Chronologically, the mirror story ends around the 2370s/2380s where the latest books leave off. There is a great blanks space, and then STO has a restored Terran Empire. The fact that there are two versions of the regular universe doesn't mean that the mirror universe will change according to any such whim. Until a book or comic or games gets the mirror universe to the year 2400, all you are doing is adding speculation about what happens between the end and that new offshoot. Again, events of the 'regular' universe should not be taken account here, we're discussing the mirror continuity... -- Captain MKB 20:07, February 16, 2011 (UTC) It doesn't matter if it's in a different universe or not, anything from STO takes place in a separate continuity.JDB 04:00, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :No, that's not true. The events of STO are completely in keeping with the possible future of the canon universe, the IDW comics, most other comics, games and books that are not from Pocket. The only contradiction is in the current Pocket Books and STO, where there has been a divergence of timelines observed by Temporal agents. Just because STO and Destinay are alternate continuties doesn't mean that STO is alternate to everything. You're assuming that Pocket is 'reality' and 'STO is 'alternate', when in fact, neither conflicts with ANYTHING ELSE (except each other) -- Captain MKB 21:21, February 16, 2011 (UTC) Contradictions themselves don't matter, what matters is where it comes from in the real world, and once something is separated into a separate continuity then anything that comes from it is in a different continuity. I think the problem here is that you're think purely in the terms of in universe realities while I'm talking about real world continuities. A continuity includes any reality anywhere in the the timeline that is based off of that source.JDB 04:00, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :This doesn't really make any sense from the point of view of Memory Beta. We write articles based on the events of the imaginary Star Trek universe, not based on whatever "real-world continuity" you seem to believe exists. :We base our articles on published sources of the fiction, not any "real world continuity" at all -- you've completely imagined this. :All of Star Trek canon and licensed fiction is supposed to take place in one big imaginary universe. There are a few contradictory things we note and a few "in-universe" continuities that stand out as separate (the alternate J.J. Abrams timeline and the mirror universe for example) :As for the continuities people are trying to make up here, the STO continuity is intended to follow as the future destination of the canon continuity. The only other actual source which states a continuity or timeline has actually changed is the statement of Dulmer and Lucsly that their STO future doesn't fit with the Destiny history. So basically, STO can be seen as the proper evolution of Star Trek continuity, while the Destiny-era novels are definitely established as being an alternate timeline. This is based on the sources themselves, and not on suppositions and presumption, like your statements. :Please use sources to back up statements on this talk page rather than espousing your own imagination and unsourced beliefs about what constitutes a "continuity" because it sure isn't making any sense as stated... -- Captain MKB 04:15, February 17, 2011 (UTC) STO is *a* future. Not *the* future. There is a difference! STO is just one of MANY possible futures. Nothing about it is any more real than any other. Statements like "there is only one 25th century mirror continuity" are patently false, because there are as many continuities as the writers feel like writing. It's not "one big universe", it's an infinite number of them. No particular writer is obligated to follow the continuity established in any other novel. If a writer feels like doing something, they'll do it, and continuity be DAMNED. And in the end, for crying out loud, STO is just a video game! What makes that more official than canon, onscreen Trek? Nothing, of course. Mr. Laser Beam 05:01, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :You're talking in circles. :*While STO is one of many possible futures, it is currently the only one described. Therefore, it is "the" only current known future. Why don't you accept this? :*While you say that other continuities could be written about, no other continuities of the 25th century have been written about -- therefore, you have no source to state that there are other 25th century continuities besides your own imagination about what those writers could someday write. Sources that haven't been written yet are not part of Memory Beta's policy and this is why your comments have no bearing on this discussion. :*STO is designed to fit with canon Trek -- there's nothing 'more' or 'less' official. They coexist and were written to complement each other. Memory Beta was created to chronicle these sources, even if they are "just video games" -- you seem to not be willing to accept that basic premise of this site. What do you think Memory Beta is here for, if not to chronicle video games?! Video games are licensed Star Trek! -- Captain MKB 05:20, February 17, 2011 (UTC) Exactly, all of the sources are equally valid and should be treated as such. Why are you considering the the STO timeline the valid one, when no one involved with canon Trek has made any statement to that effect? Oh, and if we bring up canon Trek, then I would just like to mention that several of the people involved with the storylines of the Destinyverse have been involved with canon Trek in the past.JDB 05:12, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :You are mistaken in thinking that we need someone to 'make a statement' to the effect of including a source here. Our sources are licensed Star Trek. STO is a licensed Star Trek publication. No requirement of any producer or author is required to 'back that up' :Likewise, it makes no bearing on who wrote a particular source how seriously we take it. Many of my favorite writers from canon are ignored by other writers from canon. How does that affect Memory Beta's treatment of their work? None. -- Captain MKB 05:20, February 17, 2011 (UTC) Mike, are you clinically THICK? STO is not, and was never intended to be, an official, canon depiction of the future of Trek (as if it was only possible for Trek to have one future - we all know by now it is not). STO is one possible history, invented for a video game. It's not official ANYTHING. It's licensed, sure, but so is any Trek novel. STO's history is NO MORE REAL than theirs. This holds true even if no other Trek novel or episode has yet covered the specific time frame involved. Nothing that isn't in a TV series or movie is official. Mr. Laser Beam 05:26, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :Nothing you've said in your recent comments has any constructive contribution towards making progress with this article, and now you are growing frustrated and personally attacking me. This discussion is obviously over if you've lost your point this badly. We'll leave the article protected and maybe you'll cool down enough to make a rational point later on. :Also, please keep in mind that this is the LICENSED STAR TREK WIKI. Star Trek Online is a LICENSED PUBLICATION. Your arguments against this are circular in nature. -- Captain MKB 05:39, February 17, 2011 (UTC) Captain Mike, you were saying that since we haven't seen anything else set in the same as STO that it is the only thing that we can take into consideration. While that does make sense, the problem with that is that there is simply no way that the future seen in STO can be the same as the one seen in other sources. The things that have happened and will happen between the two are simply too different for anything close to the STO future to happen in the other sources. And since there is no way that this stuff is going to happen in other sources, then we should be allowed to point that out in the article itself. JDB 05:34, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :JDB, you're not being very clear -- what "other sources" are you talking about? Please be specific rather than general -- and keep in mind that clarifying how we describe these things in the article is exactly what this talk page is here to determine. -- Captain MKB 05:39, February 17, 2011 (UTC) Other sources being these: Glass Empires, Obsidian Alliances, Shards and Shadows, The Sorrows of Empire, and Rise Like Lions. Yes, like those. I wasn't being specific because I did not want to favor one source over another.JDB 05:59, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :OK, just to clarify, don't those sources leave off in the mirror universe's 2370s decade? Do any of those sources take place in the mirror universe's 2390s or 2400s? Or is there another aspect that makes you think that they are unfolding in a different direction? -- Captain MKB 06:09, February 17, 2011 (UTC) Ummmmm, oh I don't know, maybe the fact that the guy who is writing the conclusion to the current Destinyverse MU storyline just said that they won't. They have also crossed over several times into the Destinyverse, which is completely incompatible with the STO storyline.--JDB 06:22, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :Crossovers: As I said before, crossing over from the mirror universe to one version of the regular universe is not a conclusive measure. The regular universe has sometimes crossed over into alternate mirror universes too. These crossovers are plot devices that don't always equate, so I'd say to disregard 'assigning' one part of the regular universe to one variation of the mirror universe on this basis. :Author commentary: While we appreciate that authors visit Memory Beta, their unpublished comments here or on a BBS don't factor in as 'licensed sources' -- only what they write in books is valid to cite as a source for article material. :Furthermore, we have a policy against relying on unpublished works. We don't consider a source publication to be valid in any way unless it is published and exists in circulation. I'd avoid arguing too much about content from a book that won't be out until later this year, this is against Memory Beta policy. -- Captain MKB 06:28, February 17, 2011 (UTC) Where something takes place in the timeline doesn't matter when the reality where it takes place has already changed in the past. And since the Memory Omega MU has crossed over into the Destinyverse, and STO is not part of the Destinyvers then obviously MOMU is a part of the Destinyverse not STO. Just because we haven't seen past a certain point in a reality doesn't mean that that reality joins back into the other one. The Abramsverse future is not going to look anything like TNG.-- JDB 14:56, February 17, 2011 (UTC) I think I figured out where we are running into a problem here, your trying to treat everything as one big consistent universe, and as much as you may wish for that to be true, it is not, will never be, and never has been. Everything, the books, the comics, and the video games have always contradicted each other. There is really no way that they can all take place in one universe. I don't see why you can't recognize that.--JDB 17:48, February 17, 2011 (UTC) ::Howdy folks, I know I've not been active here for a little while now, and hadn't planned to return for a couple more weeks yet, but a fellow contributor pointed this rather heated discussion out to me and I felt compelled to highlight issues with formatting and policy that have arisen as a result. ::We discussed some time ago that the STO/Destiny split has been firmly established and is something we need to separate appropriately. However as Mike has pointed out the mirror universe is not the same as the two divergent prime universes which does make the situation here a little more complicated. That said I also agree with JDB’s last post, there is a certain amount of established cohesion between the Memory Omega MU and the Destinyverse, and the two STO realities, which should perhaps also be recognised. ::All that said, I think the STO/Destiny issue is not the main problem here; between the various comics, novels and games we have multiple different outcomes for the Terran Empire in various iterations of the mirror universe (we also have a few different origins for that matter). And that is what I think needs addressing in the article layout: The STO mirror universe is just one of many conflicting timelines, no one being any more authoritive than the other. Seeing that, I think the current integration of the STO MU into the prose-MU dominated timeline is a bit odd (in that while it remains a possible outcome for the prose timeline so far published it is also a possible outcome for some of the other alternate timelines, and yet is not attached to those), and think it's equally odd that the various other timelines have been relegated to "other continuities" beneath this oddly mushed together timeline. ::I think a restructuring of the page which recognises there is no singular and dominant outcome for the Terran Empire history would better reflect out multiple conflicting sources, and avoid this whole STO vs Destiny timeline argument even having to be raised. --8of5 18:05, February 17, 2011 (UTC) I can't wait till Rise Like Lions comes out and we can all finally put this to bed. Mr. Laser Beam 19:41, February 17, 2011 (UTC) I really think 8of5's recommendation would be the best way to resolved this.--JDB 20:27, February 17, 2011 (UTC) :I have reorganised the page per my own suggestion, the various alternate outcomes are now presented side by side, reflecting the various conflicting sources we have. I have also removed the edit protection so all users can contribute to this page again, and I would welcome and encourage all editors to have a go at expanding this article, as all I did was rearrange the existing content, and it is in much need of expansion! --8of5 23:24, February 17, 2011 (UTC) I like that.–JDB 03:39, February 18, 2011 (UTC) Commonality I just wanted to explain my last edit reversion, the edit I undid was factually inaccurate as the Enterprise and DS9 episodes are not common to all timelines detailed here; those comics and novels written before the DS9 and Enterprise episodes reflect different timelines before and after “Mirror, Mirror”, because what was later established onscreen over-wrote several non-canon sources. All this would make for an interesting detailed description in the background section explaining the real world production history. But as far as the overall note explaining the page goes it doesn't fit. --8of5 23:47, February 17, 2011 (UTC) After the fall In Mirror, Mirror Spock {mirror} predicts that the Terran Empire will fall in 260 years. 75 years later in Crossover (episode) "the Alliance" shows itself to be just as corrupt and vicious as the old Terran Empire and following Spock's logic will probably fall in 185 years after "Crossover". Pity neither STOS or STDS9 ever continued long enough to resolve the fate the Alternative Universe-- will it be so weak over 260 years of corruption and tyranny that perhaps it's ultimate fate is to taken over by the Borg? {As is briefly seen in episode Parallels to a Alternative Federation !} John Gill? The section for Fall of the Empire is clearly based on the book "Sorrows of Empire" but there seems to be a random piece of info stating that John Gill was the emporer at the time. If I remember right, it was Hoshi Sato III who was the current ruler of the empire (who then was assassinated by Spock). I didn't want to edit it in case John Gill happens to be an alternate timeline detail (and also because I'm a complete wiki-noob). Jet grey 04:45, December 26, 2011 (UTC) :I removed the sentence in question ("In 2273 the Terran Empire Emperor is John Gill (mirror).") because you're right, it didn't belong in that section. It does, however, come from another source depicting another version of the Mirror universe. As I haven't actually read that source I'm not sure where to put the information back in at, so I'll leave it here until someone else can take care of it.--Long Live the United Earth 21:13, December 26, 2011 (UTC)